Conversations with “Friendly Atheist” (Part 2)

If you take the “delusion” part from my argument it will still hold. The fact that you did not even try to show what is the difference between belief in god and belief in unicorns just understates my point.The fact that no one has tried to convince you of the existence of unicorns (or Zeus or Osiris) is owed to the fact that the majority of people today have been indoctrinated since birth to believe in the monoteistic god of the middle east. Not because there is any difference between them. They both have the same degree of verifiable evidence, ZERO. And you know it. I’ve heard apologists who notably exceed the likes of you and some of them realize openly that there is no evidence for god. They just have faith, which it is nothing more than asserting belief while lacking evidence.Convincing me that an invisible being exists will not make such a being real my friend. I am irrelevant, don’t give me so much credit. I don’t do it myself so why would you? The whole arrogance canard is so old and tiresome. It has been well said:”Religious people often accuse atheists of being arrogant and of placing ourselves in the position of God, but really it is the theist who has all the vanity. He can’t stand to think that he will ever cease to exist. As Freud said, Christianity is the most egotistical of the religions. It is based on the premise ‘Jesus saves me.’”If you actually have a passion for truth I suggest you try to look at belief in god from an outsiders perspective. Put belief in god to the test and see what happens. I was a true believer for over 25 years. When one has a passion for truth it is never to late to reconsider one’s positions and beliefs. To live according to reality and not some bronze age myths.In reason:-FA

Dude, if you read back on your message, you should notice that you haven’t actually offered me any arguments that refute what I’ve said. To me it looks like you’ve really just asserted your disagreement with me without much backing.

I’m not trying to convince you of a very revolutionary proposition.

“there is some evidence for God”

It’s really won’t harm you atheistic beliefs if you accept this idea. There is SOME evidence for the flatness of the Earth just as there is (a lot more) evidence for the sphericality of the Earth.

There is some evidence for string theory just as there is some evidence against string theory.

The fact that I didn’t even try to show you the difference between God and unicorns is a testament to the fact that I don’t think you’ll be hearing anything new. You’ve been told time and time again why God and unicorns are a fundamentally different things, and why there is much more evidence for God than for unicorns; I just don’t think you’re paying attention.

Your problem is probably that you think science is the only valid type of evidence. It’s a very common misconception that I see a lot in scientists (and interestingly a staggering number of atheists). But reason and rationality are so much more all encompassing than just science. You can’t forget the role of history and philosophy when your searching for any truth. Science is important but if it were the only thing that brought knowledge we wouldn’t know very much at all, and what we had would be quite shallow knowledge.

Most of the arguments for the existence of God employ the disciplines of philosophy or history, very little of them employ science. That’s because science is a study of the laws of nature. It’s main objective is to predict the ways the universe will behave under certain conditions. It’s objective is NOT to tell us what happened in the past in society, and certainly not to tell us what exists in the supernatural. But history and philosophy do do these things.

Basically my point is, arguments have been made for the existence of God. You’ve heard them. And while you don’t like them, and you’re not convinced by them, many extremely intelligent and sane people are convinced by them. And the fact that any arguments have been made that have convinced anyone means that there is SOME evidence for the existence of God – however good or bad that evidence is. The question is NOT whether or not there is any evidence for God, the question is how much of it there is and whether or not it outweighs the evidence for the alternative.

Now, any apologist who tells you that there is no evidence for God doesn’t sound like much of an apologist to me. The definition of an apologist really is someone who provides a defence of their faith by the employment of reason. As the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15, Christians should be prepared to give anyone a REASON for the hope we have. Now, keep in mind that you are NOT a Christian, and thus are in no position to tell me what I mean when I use the word faith. I assure you that I don’t know a single Christian (and I go to a big church) who considers it virtuous to believe something without evidence. Not one. The Bible, as I have told you in the past, uses faith in a way which means something much closer to “trusting in the truth that you have come to believe in (by reason)”.

See, if I my faith in God meant my belief in him without any evidence, then it would be impossible to give you any reason for the hope I have in Jesus (which the Bible commands me to give to you). Faith, by your definition, has no engagement in the realms of reason at all. It is completely detached from whatever evidence there is. But a real Christian apologist will tell you that they have reasons for what they believe. If they really believed, as you say, that they believed in God “on blind faith” then they would not be in the business of trying to convince you by reason that God is real. They would have nothing to tell you but the mere fact that they believe in God. Yet instead we sit here and we employ our reasoning skills to try to communicate and engage with you through some medium by which people come to believe and disbelieve things.

Really, it just wouldn’t make any sense for you to assert that there is not a shred of evidence for God. If you do that you’d have to actually disarm the arguments I’ve given you somehow – that is ideal procedure for rational discourse – rather than simply assert that I’m wrong because of my cultural conditioning. It would probably need to involve you telling me what you think evidence is (because in order to say there is no evidence for God, I’d say you need a very narrow conception of evidence).

If you really want me to tell you why belief in God is different to belief in unicorns then I’ll go into that. But I’m not currently convinced that you need to be shown.

And you can trust me, I’ve put my belief in God thoroughly to the test, but like it or not, it’s just resulted in a stronger, much more rationally fuelled belief. I believe that’s because it is the truth.

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